Rob Stott: All right, we are back on the Connected Design Podcast here from CEDIA Expo in Denver. And I’m first of all really appreciative of the opportunity to sit down with you, Mr. Paul Miller, CEO of Forge. That’s the new title, right?
Paul Miller: Correct.
Rob Stott: That’s incredible. Well, I appreciate you taking the time. I know you have a quick but busy schedule here in Denver. But before we dive into any of that, I want to give people watching in this channel the opportunity to get to know you. You are a new face in this space to us in the CEDIA channel. So, tell us who Paul Miller is.
Paul Miller: Okay, I’ll make this brief. So as you can probably tell, I’m originally from the UK and came to the States 33 years ago now. Most of my career has been spent in the tech industry, so CEDIA is something that is not that far removed from where I was. I was more in the semiconductor ingredient side, about two thirds of my career there, always in the event and media space. So I come actually from a digital media background, and I’ve learned events along the way.
I’ve worked at many of the large event companies, the Informa’s, the UBM’s, the Penton’s of the world. Most recently, I was the CEO of Questex, and we were part of the Apollo acquisition that bought both Questex and Emerald together to form Forge. So yeah, it’s been a good journey.
Rob Stott: Exciting opportunities, I know. And being in the event space, I have to imagine you guys were familiar with Emerald prior?
Paul Miller: Yes, very much so. Emerald is the largest event producer in the U.S., and Questex, where I was, was certainly not as large, but number two. So we were very aware of Emerald. And I think the third thing, which is probably very relevant to the discussion, is that Questex has a very 365, data-driven approach. So we understand the media side of the business. We understand the data that kicks off, and that enables us to build stronger communities and turn better events.
Rob Stott: Talk about that, because events are events. This event space is constantly changing and evolving, and there are very different approaches to it. So bringing together these two approaches, you talk about the portfolio that Emerald has and kind of what you guys bring to the table. What do you see as the opportunities of this new company, Forge?
Paul Miller: Yeah, look, I think if I start from the very top, the thesis is, and a lot of private equity investors are buying into this, that in an AI world where there’s a lot of AI slop out there and you don’t know what to trust or not trust, people are going to gravitate toward trusted forums. That could be podcasts, it could be media, but very much it’s going to be real-life events. Starting from the very, very top, this kind of trusted environment of meeting people, shaking hands and looking them in the eye is actually being benefited by AI, which is a good thing.
But I don’t think that’s enough in itself. I think what that will do is attract marketing attention to the medium. So a lot more marketing attention. In my opinion, that will attract more chief marketing officers and potentially more budget toward this medium.
Now, while that sounds great, at the same time, I think the demands on us are going to get even higher than they have been before. Demands for ROI, demands for reporting and metrics, demands for better experiences at the live event. Don’t let me just walk around and bump into people. Help me meet people. I can do the bumping in at the bar. That’s still a good thing. But if you can help me and curate meetings, and that’s where I think, Robert, it really all comes together.
If we’re able to know what you’re interested in through your reading habits and then bring that to the live event and say, “Hey, you should probably be meeting these customers, or they should be meeting you,” I think we end up in a really, really good place of connecting buyers.
Rob Stott: And I think, correct me if I’m wrong, but that kind of gets to the 365 experience that you guys bring to the table.
Paul Miller: Absolutely. That was the Apollo theory. Emerald brings real scale and very large events and the ability to do those. And the Questex side of the fence brings this sort of data-driven 365, how to raise the value of people who meet at events. If it goes to plan, that’ll be a really great theory and a great thesis proven out. It’s easier to say than it is to do, frankly. But we have proof points, and I think we’ll be driving the strategy.
Rob Stott: Well, I know you mentioned a week old, the new Forge company, but obviously the announcement was made in July, a couple of weeks ago, right? So seven weeks as opposed to one. In those seven weeks, I imagine there has been a lot of interaction with the Emerald team and what’s going on there. What have you learned from them?
Paul Miller: Oh boy, it’s been a whirlwind tour. I’ve actually met every employee, either in person or at least virtually on a virtual town hall. I’ve traveled the world to do that. The first thing that I can say categorically is that the Emerald business is full of really good people who are very passionate about what they do. They really care. They want to put on great events. They want to produce ROI for customers. And they really do care about making their events the very best they can.
The second thing I have learned is that it’s a broad portfolio, but it’s again replete with really strong product. So if you’ve got good people and good product, it’s not a bad place to start from. I’ve walked into organizations that have one of those. Sometimes if you have good people but bad product, there’s a heavy lift, or vice versa. Good product, but the people aren’t up to it, you have another heavy lift.
That may sound sort of a bit 40,000 feet, but it’s a really important learning because that means we’ve got a foundation to build upon. I think the other thing that I’ve learned is that there is a genuine hunger for the strategy that we just talked about. The Emerald team is really looking for robust databases to market to, lots of intelligence that they can bring into the meetings and help people connect. So there’s a kind of openness and a hunger.
I think it’s fair to say that both Emerald and Questex were in sale processes. And when you’re in sale processes, you tend to tighten up a little bit, and it’s frustrating for all, but it’s what people do. Like when you get married, you try to lose a couple of pounds. It’s just the way it is. We’d all rather it wasn’t, but you want to look your best when you do go for that sale. So now that’s over. We’re through that. And now we’ve got a backer and a financial sponsor who is really supportive and is literally asking us, “Where should we be investing?” So it’s been a great first couple of months, almost. I’ve attended, this will be my fourth event. And as I say, I’ve been on the world tour, and I have nothing but positivity to report. I think there’s real growth.
Rob Stott: No, that’s all great. And I can second everything you’re saying in terms of, I experienced that myself having gone through companies where you see that. I don’t know where the prenup exists or whatever, but we’re past that. It’s awesome, and I know exciting for a lot of people in this industry. They saw it and experienced it, and now seeing this and seeing the potential for what’s to come, I think is very exciting for a lot of people who have been around this space, this event, this industry.
I know one of the things too that was mentioned in the statement a week ago with the Forge announcement is still kind of allowing Questex and Emerald to maintain that identity, if you will, of what they bring to the table. So talk about that. You’re obviously bringing Forge as this parent company, but how will both brands still be able to operate?
Paul Miller: I think there’s sort of two layers to our business. For the CEDIA community, very often they won’t even know who Emerald is, but they really care about CEDIA, the event. Sometimes they’ll know, because in this particular case there’s a partnership with the association and it’s been going on for a long time. But often the community doesn’t recognize us through our corporate brand. They recognize us through the event brand or through the media brand, whatever it is they do business with. That will continue. That’s not going to go away. The actual brand presence for the community, CEDIA for this community, remains and will not go away.
The Emerald and Questex brands will be going away, just to be really clear. They’ll be replaced by the parent company of Forge. And really the goal for us is to see where there is an unlock in bringing these businesses together. In some cases, there may be. In some cases, there’s definitely not. It’s a product that sits where it sits and it’s fine. We’ll invest as it’s due its investment or earns its investment. And in some cases, there are some crossovers.
We have some tech portfolio. We have a lighting show, which is not really for residential lighting, to be completely clear. Are there people that cross over? I’m pretty sure there are. We’ll be learning that. And if we can help people connect with different customers, new customers at these events, then that’ll be great. So the Forge overlay is really trying to figure out what learnings we can bring.
Something that might work at an event in Singapore, where they did something very special in one-to-one meetings, that special thing then gets shared with the CEDIA team and they say, “We’d like to bring that to our events.” So that’s the real corporate value add, if you will. We’re able to bring together a business that, if you leave it alone, will divert into silos. You’ll have 550 businesses all doing their thing. The idea here is to let CEDIA be really close to its market and really take advantage of that, but at the same time take advantage of the infrastructure that the corporate entity brings. That’s the idea.
Rob Stott: Gotcha. I appreciate that. And I know people who follow this channel likely follow the CEDIA industry very close, of course, but B2B and events have kind of been through it, I’m sure, over the years, and they had to evolve, were forced to evolve.
In your experience, and I think it comes from what you touched on at the top, in the opportunities that exist for an event like this, it’s hard to say that all B2B events are the same because the industries are different. So it’s not very cookie cutter. But the idea being that you guys can approach this and, to your point, bring things that have worked at other events and at least try it. What are some of the early areas of opportunity? I know you haven’t been through CEDIA Expo yet at this point as we sit here, so you’ll learn a lot over the next couple of days. I guess I’m asking you to put your crystal ball hat on. Where do those opportunities lie to you?
Paul Miller: The caveat for this event is you’re right. I haven’t been before, and I’m about to go and meet some customers, and we’ll see where the opportunities are. But to answer your question relevantly, but probably more generally, the first thing is that you’re absolutely right that events have gone through various iterations and changes. But to be really candid, they’re not that much different from the bazaar in Istanbul in the 1600s. There’s a market stall, there are people who come, and stuff gets bought and sold. At its core, that’s what a lot of events have been and have grown up on.
That actually kind of changed in the COVID period. I think two things happened. One, we realized, I think as human beings, that we didn’t like not meeting each other and we wanted to be back out. And two, we wanted the events and the experiences that we did go back out to be a little bit more than the previous 400 years, if you will. Interestingly, the technology has got to a point where we can do a lot better than that.
For instance, there are events out there that do mass buyer-seller connections and meetings where you can get guaranteed 20 meetings over a two-day or one-day period, depending on what it is, with customers that have identified themselves as interested in your product. That’s a slight change from, “I’ll invite the customer to my booth and hopefully they find me.” This is actually literally putting people together across a table. It’s not a new idea, but it’s an idea that’s in the past been looked at in isolation.
We’ll have some one-to-one meeting events, we’ll have some confex and education events, and then we’ll have some big trade shows. My opinion is they are starting to blend. Yes, people want to walk around the show floor and discover new product and technology, say hi to customers and potential new customers. They also want to get educated, so you’ve got to have a really good conference program and a content program. And they also want you to help them meet people that maybe they don’t know who to meet. That’s what’s coming.
I’ll go one stage further. People like me are retiring out of the industries, and we’re being replaced by millennials, believe it or not, and even Gen Zs. My daughters are both in that kind of age group. They wouldn’t put up with the 1970s. That experience for them is alien. So they want curation. They want entertainment. They want an experience, and they want ROI on their time.
Rob Stott: That exactly hits on what was going to be my follow up. It is about the customer. There’s obviously the generational aspect of it, but even in this post-COVID era, there’s the three letters I think everyone cares about, that ROI. They’re getting a return on their investment dollar-wise for being here, but also their time. Time is a valuable commodity.
Paul Miller: Even more valuable these days than ROI.
Rob Stott: From that customer perspective, I know you already started to touch on it, but how has the customer evolved today? What do they care more about? Time and money, yes, but in terms of their event experience, what are those areas?
Paul Miller: That’s a great question, and it actually is a bit of a nuanced answer, if you don’t mind, because sometimes it depends on the customer. You have large customers and large brands out there that have a very different set of objectives than a new launch.
If I start with the large customers that have been around a long time, they’re either introducing new product and trying to stay right in front of what’s going on out there, or they’re being challenged by their competitors, particularly if they’re at the top of the hill and everyone’s trying to knock them off. So from an event, they’re looking for, “Not only do I need to meet new customers, I need an environment where I can meet my current customer set, introduce them probably under NDA to new products, and I need to see as many of them in one place at one time, because that’s the return on my time. Then I’m not flying all over the world trying to meet them. You’re hopefully bringing them to me.”
So that’s the large established brands. They’re also looking to rise above the noise. They’re looking for activations, creativity, things that they can own that really enhance their brand value, and all done in a cost-effective way.
But if I go to the other end of the spectrum and look at maybe a startup, they’ve got a little bit of funding, they’ve got a new product that they’re keen to get out there. They are absolutely just trying to meet people. At that stage, almost anybody counts because they’re really trying to establish themselves. So for them, it’s about traffic and it’s about quantity, sometimes over quality, although I never go too far down that route because quality really does matter in a time environment.
So there are different objectives, different things they want. They’ve got to make their dollars go a lot further. They probably have a marketing budget of 30 grand. By the time they’ve flown here, brought people here, you don’t have a lot of money left, so their actual booth will be pretty rudimentary in some ways compared with a large customer who’s making big experiential investments.
It’s a nuanced answer, but underneath it all, you actually really got the right metric. It’s the return on their time because anybody, it doesn’t matter if they’re small or large, they’re committing their teams, they’re committing their people. They’re probably coming to Denver here for three, four, five, six days. That’s a huge time commitment. So they’ve got to see some return on that.
I think the good old days of, “Look, it was crowded and it felt good,” are going away. I think it has to be, “It’s crowded and it felt good, yeah. But who did I meet? What sales-qualified leads did we put into our CRM? What marketing-qualified leads did we put into our CRM? How do we report back to our CMO, who probably isn’t here, but I’d like to see here, and say, look, this is what we got out of this event and we should be going there next year as well?”
There’s a lot to unpack underneath that. There’s innovation to unpack, there’s partnership to unpack, there’s being easy to do business with to unpack. In some of these areas, I think the event industry, including ourselves, has room to get better.
Rob Stott: First of all, I appreciate you going through all that nuance because I think it’s important to understand that customers are going to approach it differently based on a lot of factors, size being probably one of the more important ones. The follow up to this too is, everything you’re saying, does that show that the different types of events, whether you’re talking about something that’s purely educational versus the personalized bringing together versus the traditional trade show, do they have to blend? Is there still space for them, or does something have to change around the mindset of the trade show today?
Paul Miller: That’s another really great question. Again, I hate to sound like I’m hedging, but it’s a bit of an industry nuance. Let’s take this industry because I think it’s probably more relevant to this discussion. In tech-enabled industries or tech-disrupted industries where lots is happening very fast in the residential space, and the technology in the home is a radically changing environment, you’ve got lots of things to do when you bring a community together.
Firstly, you’ve got to educate people on what’s happening and how do you deal with it, hopefully by bringing in people who have case studies, who have lived the dream, who have made mistakes. They’re going to share those with you so you don’t make the same mistakes, or at least they’re going to tell you, “This is how we did things well.” So education in fast-moving, tech-disrupted industries is really, really key. That content piece is, in my opinion, one of the most important things you can bring to heavily disrupted industries.
The second piece, which is sort of related to that, is the networking. You might not be able to attend every session that you want to attend, but can you talk to people who are going through certain situations that you’re going through? The beauty of an event is that you can curate that a little bit, or you can let it happen naturally. Both are fine, but I think in a time-pressed environment, people do like a little bit of curation.
I think the technology will continue to evolve where you and I might be walking across each other in the aisle and our badges will go green. It’ll be like, we don’t know each other, but that means we’ve got a similar interest. What are you dealing with? I’m dealing with security issues and how people are bringing AI to security, and it seems like you are as well. Can we have a quick coffee? That type of thing is not far away. In fact, some events are doing it in the industry.
So I think it does depend. There are some events, like I was at one last week, which was literally about buying and selling product. Don’t overweight the education, guys. We just want to be on the move. People are writing orders, literally writing orders. So you don’t want to force-feed a model onto that that says, “That’s great, but we’re now going to invite you all to a conference,” and half of the buyers are now in a conference, not writing orders. You’ve got to have, what we say in the UK, horses for courses. But I do think that CEDIA is more in the cutting-edge part of needing content, networking, good education and the ability to discover product, which brings the show forward.
Rob Stott: Makes perfect sense, and again, appreciate that. I know we’ve talked about it, and in the interest of time, I know we both have busy schedules, so I don’t want to monopolize too much of yours. But I do want to ask, just in closing, a lofty question. Some might call it a softball. Success for Forge, what will that look like three, five years down the line?
Paul Miller: I’ll try to break that into three, if you will. Firstly, that we become the customer-centric business in our competitive set that is using customer insight to drive product development, which leads into faster growth. Often internally we’ll say we need faster growth as a business, but that comes from being very customer-centric and very customer-focused.
That’s why I’m doing what I’m doing, listening to customers, correlating that with more experienced people than me who have been at this event for a long time and saying, “What are you hearing? What are you seeing? Because I’m hearing this. Therefore, what should we do? What should we invest in to improve the growth?” So that is point one. We’re a fast-growing industry that is known as being customer-centric, easy to do business with and a business that listens to its customers. Frankly, for me, that means faster growth.
Faster growth should lead to being a larger company, and we will be doing M&A. We will be doing more acquisitions. We’ve got the support to do that. We’ll also be investing in organic growth. We’ll be having quite a lot of internal discussion on which product and which industry gets the investment. That’s going to be based on a lot of things: the best ideas, the customer input, historical performance, what people are telling us about the potential. Sometimes it depends on where the industry is. If it’s in a headwind scenario, if it’s in the down cycle for certain reasons, then your investment’s going to be in a different segment or a different area of that industry than it would be if it was all up to the right. So growth leading to a larger business, if you will.
And then underneath that, which is probably going to sound a bit weird, I want us to be recognized as the company to work for in our industry. So I want to attract the talent.
Rob Stott: Not weird at all.
Paul Miller: Yeah, it sounds weird sometimes because when you’re in an industry that makes product, like a lot of the people on the show floor here, you’re dealing with tariffs and supply chain issues and manufacturing issues and all of those kinds of great things. We actually don’t deal with those directly. We deal with them through the industries we serve, but we actually don’t make anything apart from great people who make great environments and great experiences. So for me, making sure that great people are harnessed here, they can grow here and want to work here is really important.
Rob Stott: And one of the things I think you’ll find as you walk around here is culture. Very product-centric, but culture does permeate a lot of the conversation. It’s very much a just got out of a session actually where we were talking about how a couple of integrators, the attendees here, built their business. Both of them just sort of naturally through the flow of the conversation brought up culture and how they’ve developed their teams, and wanting to be a great place to work. That’s something to know.
Paul Miller: I don’t think we talk enough about it sometimes as leaders. For us, it’s very acute because we are a people business. But even if it wasn’t that way, it’s great to hear that that’s the feeling here because, in my opinion, it’s the difference between winning and losing, or winning well and winning mediocre.
Rob Stott: Absolutely. I love that. So it’s cool to hear. A little sad we’re not talking Friday after, or maybe Thursday after you’ve gotten to experience the show a little bit, but still fun. And maybe we probably would be in rough shape by the time it was the end of the day.
Paul Miller: You’re catching me at a much better time, I think. There’s a pre-packed schedule of listening to customers. I’m going to be on stage tomorrow introducing a session and listening to some of the content as well, trying to figure out what people are really dealing with. But I think if my research is correct, there’s a lot of tech and it’s all coming together. You’ve got an end customer in the home who’s very demanding, but probably doesn’t fully understand everything. That brings the integrator right into the middle of that discussion.
Rob Stott: It does. I think it’ll be cool down the line to see what you thought coming out of this event. But Paul, we appreciate you taking the time. This was fascinating, to be able to sit down and learn from you. We’re all rooting for Forge, we’re rooting for CEDIA Expo and all the other events that go on. We look forward to catching up down the line.
Paul Miller: Thank you. Will do.
